ici 2 liens de MaddenMania concernant une critique du jeu de passe de Madden 2004, aC justifié je pense :
http://www.maddenmania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30955

http://www.maddenmania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31147

dis nous . .faut se " loger"!!

gb,
2p8 le tps ke tu es sur Madden, je penC ke TT 1 habitué 2 ce site !

ouais mai g pa de n° utilisateur

" Gameplay issues: Part One, The Quarterback
-------------------------------
Foreword
Five months. It’s already been five months since EA released its latest edition of Madden Football. This is the point when I realize all the different bugs, problems, and ultimately, screw ups in the gameplay of Madden. Although I’ve never played organized football, I’ve watched enough, and played enough of Madden to realize what is wrong. By reading Maddenmania’s forums for several years now, everything that I see that is wrong is also seen by many of the members. While a casual fan may never notice the flaws, any fan of realism will never get what is wanted out of Madden. I won’t claim I know exactly what and how Madden is programmed, but it astounds me that even I can pick out the problems. And know what? Even I can devise fixes. Will it work? Will EA use them? I could care less. All I want is at least get my point of view, and the view of many others out there. Maybe, just maybe EA does what they say and will read this, and understand that there is so much room for improvement. I don’t mean to disparage the good work EA does on Madden, but I’m still puzzled at the way EA looks and conceives its own gameplay.

QB AI

In Madden 2004, the hot new fix was the DB AI. Massive changes were done there, and it did improve drastically, especially if you compare it to the levels in 2002, especially in the pass happy PC version. Fans of Madden noticed that too many passes were being completed in double, triple, and also on long passes. To fix this, EA looked at the end of the chain, the point where the defensive back breaks up/stops a pass from being completed. However, this was the wrong way to approach the problem in realistic gameplay of passing. Yes receivers do catch balls in traffic, sometimes in double and triple coverage. But the very problem with Madden then, and still today, is the first link in the chain, the quarterback. In fact, the very problem is that the quarterback throws far too frequently into multiple coverages. It sickens me when I play a game and the CPU quarterback throws a ball that neither I, nor anyone else in their right mind would ever throw. I don’t even need statistics to support this, since all that anyone needs to do is watch 30 or so passes the CPU makes. That is the very problem of passing, not the level of the defense backs can play at. Frankly, the defensive backs play well enough in the game, where the major overhaul is needed at the quarterback logic of the CPU.

Progression of Reads and Timing:

I’ve played the Football Pro series long enough to understand a key point that I believe is omitted in the passing logic. Again, I won’t claim I know how EA programmed the logic of the quarterbacks, but I believe they have failed to properly utilize progression of reads of the receivers. Currently in the playbooks, there is a primary receiver, shown as an orange pass route on the play selection screen. That is a good start. Yet, the very problem occurs with all of the non-primary receivers that are in the pass routes. Ask any NFL quarterback, and they will tell you that they have a primary, a secondary, sometimes a tertiary receiver, and finally the dump off receiver. However in Madden, the CPU doesn’t progress through the normal reads a human quarterback or even player would go through. When I play, I normally look at the coverage, find my primary and secondary receivers, and choose to throw to them or my safety valve. This is where I feel the QB AI fails to mimic the real life actions of a QB. I believe there are two possible sources of error here, either that the QB AI doesn’t have a secondary/tertiary/dump off routes ( I believe that this is the true source of error), or that the CPU progresses way too fast through the reads, reaching the dump off receiver well before any of the other receivers have even neared completion of their routes.

How do I know this? Again, I cannot be sure. But one thing is certain, is that none of the plays in all of the playbooks demonstrate that there are secondary/tertiary receivers. If it is there, then EA should color code the routes, so even the players can follow the same logic that the CPU QB uses.

What is more disturbing is actually watching the CPU in action. Some of the most awkward decisions occur when the CPU takes a three step drop-back, and throws the ball immediately to a covered back/tightend in the flat for a loss. I do understand that there are plays in which it is designed to occur, but again I have to question the decision making of the CPU QB. Yet, even more problematic is the question of why. Why would a CPU QB choose to dump it off to a cover receiver, without even giving time to their receivers to get open? This demonstrates that there are two possible problems; either the back/tightend isn’t labeled as a dump off/tertiary receiver, or that the CPU went through its reads too quickly. There may be several factors in this, but when I play, I rarely blitz and force the issue. I also mostly play man to man defenses, so why should the CPU dump it off rather than try to hit a one on one receiver?

I know that isn’t very direct line of evidence of a problem. Yet, EA hasn’t shown that it is not a problem. Their play editor doesn’t demonstrate anything more than a primary receiver. Anything involving the timing of the reads occurs “under the hood” of the game. We cannot be sure if this area of the CPU QB logic is flawed. What EA can do, is in fact label the receivers as primary, secondary, tertiary, dump off receivers to show that they truly using progression in reading the receivers, especially in the play editor. What also can be done is to tweak how long a QB stays with a receiver. Typical NFL QB’s at least wait a second or two for their initial receiver. Is this happening in Madden? You tell me EA.

Quarterback Accuracy

I think this is the most obvious problems of the game with the quarterbacks. The slider does not help. Natediggity posed the very problem with the QB’s passed in a very simple manner:

“When you pass on Madden 1 of 5 things happens:

1. Completion
2. Dropped pass
3. Interception
4. Defensive knockdown
5. Defensive linemen knocks it down.”

The biggest missing event from that list is just a simple incompletion that hits the ground harmlessly. The CPU QB rarely misses the receiver to the point where the receiver doesn’t have a play on the ball. The sliders don’t affect this. That is major reason why an abnormal amount of balls are completed to a covered receiver, since the QB places the ball in the perfect location. Certainly, a great QB will do this often, but it simply occurs too often with any QB. Seldom does a QB just miss his receiver.

I hate to repeat it again, but I don’t have a clue how this is programmed in Madden. If it’s fixable, then please fix it. If not I have my own suggestion, use probabilities. For simplicity, lets say a QB with 85 Throwing Accuracy will complete passes on an average of 60%. What should then happen is that the QB places the ball about 70% of the time within a yard left, right, above, or below the chest of the receiver. 27.5% should happen 2-3 yards from the receiver, and 2.5% 5+ yards. The passing model should be based on a bell curve, where the majority of the passes land near the receiver, and but not directly on. This also secures the chances for an off pass, making passing the ball over the middle a dangerous proposition.

Lob versus Bullet, and Pass location ( Thanks to Chuckles for the idea)

This was initially raised by Chuckles, but an interesting and important point. Not only will the CPU QB make horrible decisions in choosing the receiver to pass to, but will also at times choose the incorrect pass type to get the ball to the receiver. Couple this with the immense awareness of the receivers, and you rarely get that harmless, untouched incomplete pass. At times the CPU QB will decide to throw a bullet pass on a pattern that is well over 20 yards. Although this is plausible for QB’s like Vick or Favre, but seeing Chad Pennington doing it with ease doesn’t make any sense, and portrays an unrealistic passing game. Seeing a receiver 30 yards downfield stop and spin around at the last second to catch a bullet pass from Pennington just isn’t the most pleasing sight. In addition, the QB will decide that throwing to the runningback in the flat requires a high lob, instead of a touch pass. However, the most interesting pass choice occurs when the LB is chasing a runningback upfield. Instead of throwing a nice lob over the LB, the QB decides that throwing a bullet pass in the back of the LB is the best decision.

But another cause to the stupid passing decisions of the QB occurs when choosing where to throw the ball. More often than not, I’ll watch the CPU QB throw a deep ball to the inside shoulder of a receiver instead of the safer outside shoulder. Not only does this result in interceptions, but also catches that makes the defensive backs look like idiots. This is especially apparent in corner routes, where the CPU QB will decide again that the inside shoulder is a better location than the more logical outside shoulder. On an out? CPU passes to the inside shoulder. On a slant? CPU throws it behind the receiver, so the receiver has to do a spin move to catch the ball. Yet, the flaw isn’t exposed until a Cover-2 defense is used. With the cornerback playing underneath, one would think the CPU QB would lob the ball over the cornerback, or at least place the ball in a location where the receiver has a play on the ball. Does this happen? Heck no. The CPU QB decides throwing a bullet pass irregardless of the cornerback is the best decision, and before you know it, you’ve got Al Harris taking the ball back for a touchdown.

Even though I haven’t spelt it out completely, but the CPU QB’s just make horrible decisions. Throw it into double coverage? Sure my receiver can come up with it. Have a corner tightly covering my receiver? Hey I’ll just chuck the ball, he’ll catch it. Seriously, the decision making of the CPU is just astounding on how frequently the poor decisions occur. The CPU QB needs to throw to more open receivers than just throwing it to a location where it thinks its receiver can make a play. There really needs to be an area detector for the QB, if there are two or more defensive players within 7 yards, or a defensive back within one yard, the pass should be rarely thrown.

The Most Annoying Action of the Quarterback

By far the most frustrating event occurs when a pass rusher has the quarterback in his grasp, but at the last second the quarterback just chucks the ball and hits his linemen for an incomplete pass. Not only is the lack for an illegal touching penalty annoying, but the decision is far greater. So, let me place myself in the shoes of the CPU quarterback:

“Okay. I have a lineman that is going to hit me before I can get a proper pass off. There is no chance for me to get rid of the ball without risking a fumble or a interception. Lets see, I can take the sack and try next down. Sounds good. What sounds better is that I should just fling it in the air, and hope nobody catches it. Yes, that is what every quarterback does in my position. Those referees are even dumb enough to not even throw an intentional ground penalty on me. That’s the best decision by far. Well, here goes…”

What is wrong with that description? Why in the world would a professional quarterback, especially a top quarterback, decide that flinging the ball at the line of scrimmage is a better decision than just taking a sack? What is even more painful is that the quarterback gets away with it. No grounding, no illegal touching ( Hmmm, maybe EA omitted these penalties on this type of play… maybe because it happened too often??? Makes you think doesn’t it.). Please, I am sick and tired of the quarterbacks getting away with this cheap tactic. This needs to be fixed, since in the NFL this results moreso in a turnover or penalty, than what EA describes as an incomplete pass.

The simple fix just involves replacing the logic with a lineman a step away and no chances of getting the pass off with a scrambling decision, or just simply taking the sack. How hard can that be?

Other problems, that are easy to describe and remedy:
1) Too many deep balls
2) QB slide
3) Still an occasional run one way and throw the ball to the opposite side
4) More roll outs and bootlegs
5) What happened to pump fakes for the CPU?

Conclusion

Fixing the QB AI will not fix all problems. There are many problems with the receivers and even still with the defensive backs. Are the problems that I described true? Certainly accuracy is a major fix. What about everything else? I hope anyone reading this will understand that the QB AI in Madden is far inferior to the AI of Football Pro 96 ( made in 1995). Fixing these problems would not only help knock off the greatest football simulation game of all time, but build Madden into a undefeatable monster."

" Gameplay Issues: Part 2- The Receivers
-------------------------------
Foreword

Five months. It’s already been five months since EA released its latest edition of Madden Football. This is the point when I realize all the different bugs, problems, and ultimately, screw ups in the gameplay of Madden. Although I’ve never played organized football, I’ve watched enough, and played enough of Madden to realize what is wrong. By reading Maddenmania’s forums for several years now, everything that I see that is wrong is also seen by many of the members. While a casual fan may never notice the flaws, any fan of realism will never get what is wanted out of Madden. I won’t claim I know exactly what and how Madden is programmed, but it astounds me that even I can pick out the problems. And know what? Even I can devise fixes. Will it work? Will EA use them? I could care less. All I want is at least get my point of view, and the view of many others out there. Maybe, just maybe EA does what they say and will read this, and understand that there is so much room for improvement. I don’t mean to disparage the good work EA does on Madden, but I’m still puzzled at the way EA looks and conceives its own gameplay.

Issue Number Two: Receiver AI

In part One ( link), I explored the start of the passing chain, with the questionable decisions making of the CPU quarterback. Obviously this is a major link between the unrealistic results of the passing game. But, the second major link is in fact the receivers. I think everyone at some point has seen “the Jump,” where the receiver jumps far above and beyond to reach a ball, while the helpless defensive backs continue to gaze at the receiver waiting for him to come down and be tackled. Naturally, “the Jump” demonstrates the inadequacy of the defensive backs, but in reality it masks the problem of the receiver AI. At least EA has drastically dropped the one-handed catching that occurred in 2002 and 2003, but “the Jump” has become the new form of “cheese” and complaints from simulation addicts. At least EA attempted to address this fault in the passing game, by padding the different animations for the defensive backs for 2004. Yet, for some reason they decided to keep the animation in, and allowed it to be continually abused by the human player and the CPU.

Now at this point, you’re expecting me to discover the solution to this. In fact, the surprising solution is to keep it. Why? Well, if I could redesign Madden, I would fix the QB AI problems seen in part One. This would already limit the incidences of a covered receiver out-jumping the nearby defensive back for the catch. But there are several things wrong about the “the jump” specifically relate to the very changes I would make to the receivers.

Momentum

In recent years, EA has advertised its “momentum based” physics, where players cannot turn on a dime. This worked reasonably well for the running game, eliminating those sharp cuts that should only be reserved for Barry Sanders. Yet, this system somehow doesn’t impact the passing game, a situation that is all about momentum. I don’t understand how the momentum of the running game doesn’t have the same drastic effects on the passing game. I think everyone seen the following situation; a quarterback lofts a ball into the air, where it is drastically under thrown because the quarterback is hit as he throws it. The receiver that was running a fly pattern notices the ball won’t get there, so he slows down from full speed, turns around, takes a step or two, and proceeds to catch the ball. Now, I haven’t played receiver a real football game, but I know what it is like trying to go from top speed, turning around, and moving backwards all while the ball is in the air for mere 2-4 seconds. It just doesn’t happen.

Another problem with the momentum is the very animations EA uses to get the receivers to catch the ball. One of my personal favorites ( sarcasm) has to be the animation involving a turn towards the ball, catching the ball while doing a 360 spin, and the receiver continues off in the same direction before spinning and catching the ball. I ask everyone, who can do that full speed and still continue running off at full speed while doing a 360 spin during the catch? How many of you can keep you balance and concentration while catching? Simply this animation doesn’t make any sense. If the receiver where to do this in the NFL, most of the time he would stumble around and lose most of the speed he had. What is even more puzzling is that this animation is used specifically for the occasional balls thrown behind the receiver ( occurs a lot when I run drag routes and I pass to them).

So EA, you’ve built the “momentum based” physics. Why doesn’t it follow in the passing game? Since when can receivers make sharp cuts at full speed spin around and catch a massively underthrown ball?

Head Tracking

My other favorite animation has to be the half turn receivers do right before the ball gets to their bodies. This normally occurs when the receiver has his back to the quarterback while running upfield, only to twist their body at the last second to make the catch, using the body to help cushion the ball. The receiver then proceeds to turn back heading forwards and continue at full speed. Now this is plausible if the receiver has been looking back for the ball, what happens more often than not, is that the receiver NEVER looked back for the ball until engaging in that animation. Now the question is how is that possible?

From my point of view, maybe EA messed up in the head tracking of the players. I haven’t played NCAA extensively, but apparently the head tracking in it is much better. Perhaps the system EA uses was meant to involve the head tracking animation, so we could concretely see that the receiver was looking back on the ball, and maybe that system just wasn’t implemented fully in 2004. I especially believe in this case due to the fact that players also never even turn to make a catch, which usually results in me yelling at my receiver why he didn’t turn back.

On the other hand, this could be yet another major problem of the receivers. Possibly there has never been an intention for an animation, rather all receivers are omniscient, and know exactly where and when to turn for the ball. Either way, head tracking would eliminate these apparently lapses in reality in the passing game, and force us to throw the ball when the receiver is looking, and would be especially important for the CPU to realize when the receiver is looking.

Receiver Omniscience in Awareness

I hinted at it in the previous section, but receiver awareness has to be the key problem with the receiver AI. The more and more I think about it, the more I realize that this has to be overhauled drastically. Currently in my franchise, I have a rookie receiver with excellent physical stats, but his awareness is only a 50. You would think that having such a low awareness would hurt this receiver development, but he nearly has 50 catches in 10 games. Frankly what does awareness do? Not to go off on a tangent on attributes, but awareness has to be one of the least important attributes to me.

Why is awareness so worthless? The key is that most players have a “sixth” sense when it comes to catching the ball. Again, the head tracking issue comes up here, but players know the exact location to make the best play on the ball. It doesn’t matter if the ball is underthrown, in front, or behind since the receiver ALWAYS is able to make some sort of play on the ball. Some of this can be attributed to the nearly always accurate QB’s, but this is also very much caused by the receiver’s awareness to know how and where to catch the ball. Also, EA has programmed the receivers to know exactly when to start the catch animation. Commonly, this results in cases like the “Jump.” Rarely does a receiver jump too late/early, resulting in an incomplete pass.

The receiver awareness is especially problematic in the deep ball thrown. Coupled with the lack of momentum acting on the receiver, the receiver knows exactly the best place to make a play on the ball, while it is in the air. Receivers never overrun/underrun the ball even with momentum since they know where it is going to land. The knowledge of the ball while it is in the air really needs to be adjusted. Yet, this is all “under the hood” so I wouldn’t know where to start to fix it. The evidence is there, it just needs to be fixed.

Receiver Awareness Part Two-Route Running

What awareness should specifically affect is the route running of the receivers, and ultimately be the cause of miscommunication between the quarterback and the receiver. All the receivers run routes exactly as drawn up in the play ( except when there is the occasional pick play). Yet, as we know, players like Torry Holt are considered to be the best route runners in the league. Of course this means he makes excellent cuts, but also he runs the play exactly as called so the quarterback has an easier time making a completion.

This is how awareness should play into Madden. High awareness would mean the receiver predominantly runs the route correctly and exactly. Lower awareness would mean the receiver would run the route not exactly, or possibly wrong. For example, a receiver with poor awareness is supposed to run a 6 yard out. Maybe he runs a 5 yard route, possibly resulting in an overthrow; or he could run a 7 yard out, resulting in an underthrown ball. This doesn’t mean he will/won’t catch it, but it helps fix the constant accuracy shown by the quarterback and the receiver.

Fly Routes

One of my biggest beefs is the different types of routes the receivers run, especially the fly route. First there are too many fly patterns involved in every play. This is unrealistic since a receiver can continue running deep routes without getting fatigued. But my major problem with the fly pattern is how the receiver runs it. Now, I will talk about one adjustment needed for defensive backs ( by pressing the receivers to the sidelines), but for receivers, the fly route is run too close to the middle. Normally in the NFL, receivers are forced to run the route only 5 yards off of the sidelines. In Madden, they are typically too far to the middle. This means that with the current setup, almost every pass is playable for the receiver. Yet in the NFL, a large number of passes end up out of bounds due to the very reason the receiver is relegated to the 5 yard strip from the sidelines. In addition, by running the route closer to the sideline, it avoids the safety in a cover-2. This is very frustrating to having a deep receiver open, only to have the safety break it up because the receiver ran the route too close to the middle of the field.

HB Flats

First, runningbacks run too fast into the flats, when in real life they only jog in this route. This then causes the runningback to reach the end of his route way too fast, causing the runningback to run upfield before I’ve even checked down to him. Ultimately, when I check down to the runningback, he should still be running this route and not running upfield. If anything he should stop at the end and wait. If I scramble towards him, only then he should run upfield.

Drag Routes

One problem, sometimes they are run too close to the line of scrimmage, resulting in the receiver getting pinballed by the lineman while running his route.

Animations

I’ve already described some of the routes I dislike. The one animation I would like to see is where the receiver is running an “In” route and the ball is just a bit high so he has to turn towards the quarterback, jump, and catch the ball in the stomach.

Other

Receivers who run outside routes ( outs and corner routes) still end up out of bounds too much.

Conclusion

I really think adjusting the receivers would bring the greatest benefit to Madden. I will still mostly complain about the quarterback’s decisions, but knowing they are throwing to realistic receivers would please me more. Yet, I also think embarking on fixing the receivers would be the most difficult since the very problems are most likely deeply hardcoded into the game. I cannot even come up with decent possible solutions, rather most of my ideas, are just ideas."

Père Tonio,
J´exhume ce post à ton attention parce que je pense qu´il t´intéressera ( si tu ne l´a pas déjà lu?), et certainement pas pour enfoncer Madden, mais parce que je sais que tu es un vrai connaisseur de ce jeu, dans ses aspects positifs...mais aussi négatifs.